(no subject)

[coraa]

Can I call a moratorium on the "Just Jealous!" argument?

It came up most recently in an observed discussion of whether it placed unfair pressure on women to make them state in advance at a con whether or not they were okay being asked for a grope. (For the record: oh hell yes, that's pressure, that's a nice word for it. But that's not what this is about.) And in the ensuing discussion one thing kept coming up: a couple of voices from the free groping end of things said over and over that we were just jealous that we hadn't been there to take part in the fun, were jealous that we weren't as free and happy and liberated, were Just Jealous that we weren't as awesome as them.

And it made me think of why I left a couple of long-hair-growing communities on LJ. I kept reading them long after I'd more or less given up growing my hair long (it just wasn't meant for it), because some of the hair care tips were interesting. But I found myself increasingly, savagely annoyed by how Just Jealous came up every thirty seconds. Your mom wants you to wash your hair? She's Just Jealous that she doesn't have long hair! Someone opines that they like short haircuts? They're Just Jealous that they haven't spent the time you did to grow it out and are trying to bring you down! The kicker was a poster who said that she liked to take her hair down in front of salons and shake it out to make everyone inside writhe with jealousy, as though all the hipsters getting their hair trimmed short were secretly seething with brutal envy. Except, you know, not.

I think it's a tendency that has its roots in being a geek in junior high, when there was really no good reason for a lot of bullying and tormenting, and for so many people the easy answer to a teary 'but why?' was that the bully was jealous -- especially, as is so often the case, if the target of bullying was bright and talented. But honestly I don't think my bullies actually were. I'd be shocked, actually, if they were at all jealous of me, socially awkward and kind of homely and painfully shy. The hell they were. They were mean, but they weren't jealous.

But it's such a tempting notion: you disagree with me because you secretly want to be me.

And it's such an offensive notion: everyone secretly wants to be me, and the only reason they disagree with me is that they want to be me so much they can't stand it.

But increasingly it's an argument that drives me mad. No, I don't disagree with you because I wish I could be you. I just disagree with you. That's okay; there's room for both of us in the world, even if we disagree, and we can still be civil. But we do disagree. We are different.

Is that so hard?

EDIT: -- and of course, when you actually are twelve and tormented, being told that They're Just Jealous is bitter comfort. My brain immediately reminds me of a book I read as a tadpole, about a girl who noted wryly that if she lost a leg and had to get a pirate's peg leg and her enemies called her Stumpy, her mother would try to soothe her by saying that they were just jealous of how well she hopped. I think of that when someone tries to convince me that I'm just jealous: yes, I'm so jealous of how well you hop.

EDIT: The first example -- the can-I-ask-to-grope-you buttons -- isn't a topic I think I want to post more about, because it makes me so mad I can't see straight for a variety of reasons, which can be mostly summed up as 'I don't think I want to streamline random men's access to my chest.' But the best link roundup I've found yet is here.

Comments

[jmpava.livejournal.com]

Eh, you're Just Jealous of my hair.

...What? SOMEONE had to say it! ;->

[coraa.livejournal.com]

But I am jealous of your hair.

It's a bit of a lame comeback when I admit it. "I'm jealous of your hair." "You just say that because you're jealous of my hair!"

(I think this is my best hair icon.)

[thegreatgonz.livejournal.com]

whether it placed unfair pressure on women to make them state in advance at a con whether or not they were okay being asked for a grope.

Unless it's a groping convention, I have a hard time understanding how that could ever be OK.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I'm probably being a little unfair in my summary, but... yeah, that's sort of where I am on it, too. I might post more on it later, depending on whether I'm still feeling like an angry badger about it tomorrow.

It wasn't con organizers or anything, but the group in question was handing out buttons that read either 'yes' or 'no,' depending on whether or not people could approach and ask to feel you up. I'd want a button that says 'fuck off and die,' because that's the kind of sexually liberated person I am.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

My feelings on that are extremely dependent on how acceptable it is to say "Yes, it's absolutely fine to ask to feel me up. I will almost certainly reject you, but I won't be freaked out that you asked."

This has a lot to do with my feelings on innuendo in any situation, though - innuendo ought to be okay in some groups and not okay in other groups and I don't think that whether there are any women in the group ought to be the deciding factor. How the women feel about innuendo ought to be the deciding factor, but how do you ask women about how they feel about innuendo without being inappropriate?

I think I'd want there to be a button that said "Yes: ask me for a grope. I will laugh as I crush your hopes."

(Oops, that was not supposed to rhyme!)

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Also, they better have been asking men too. But that's another rant entirely. Two or three other rants, actually.

[neonelephant.livejournal.com]

I agree here, but am skeptical that it would help as much as you'd hope.

My gut response was to assume that I'd be okay with being asked and then I remembered that that might well involve being asked by other guys, which might feel a little odd (I assume that I'm still not appreciating the full impact of how creepy that is as a gal, but at least it's pause for thought).

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that it isn't quite the same thing (although I think the 'oh wait, guys might ask to touch my ass just like women might' moment is closer).

One is the fact that women are, I think, conditioned to be agreeable, so if I took the 'yes' button, I'd have a really hard time telling anybody no after that, because they'd make the oh-but-why-not-meeeeeeeee face.

But two, women just... have more realistic fear of sexual assault than men. It's simply true: statistically, it's like ten times more likely to happen, maybe more. A guy in that situation is going to have much, much less fear of 'but what if I say no to an individual and he or she decides to touch me anyway?' and even less fear than that of 'and what if he or she decides to escalate?'

If a group of people approached me and asked whether my breasts were touchable, the first thing I'd be would be frightened, and wondering what would happen if I said no. Maybe nothing would happen. But I'd wonder.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with a general understanding that innuendo or wven frank 'can I touch your breast6' requests are appropriate between friends who know each other well enough to be cool with it or at parties where it0s an understood part of the social dynamic. But the event in question was much more public than that - a thousand plus person scifi con - and I resist mightily the idea that I might have to fend off fondling requests from strangers just because I want to discuss Bujold in public, yanno? It's not a general condemnation of play. (There0s also the fact that many women including myself were heavily socialized from a young age to be ageeable and compliant and not say no that complicates the simplicity of just saying no to requests, but thats another rant for another time.) (Also apologies for terseness and typos - posting via Kindle.)

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Perhaps such a thing would be appropriate for people invited to specific parties within the con, rather than out in pseudo-public.

I hear you about many women having a hard time saying no - that's something we have to work on, though. Of course, I'm of the camp that believes that the rights and responsibilities of women should be equivalent to those of men and the rights and responsibilities of men should be expanded to make this feasible, but since the main model I have to look at for "expanded rights and responsibilities" is the current set available to men plus certain responsibilities women traditionally have that men don't, my vision of what that might mean is limiting and needs to be expanded to include the ability to live in ways that men don't live now.

I get the feeling that paragraph was terribly obtuse, but I'm pre-coffee... um... I mean that I haven't figured out how some women can live the way men live now and other women can live the way women live now and they can have the same larger set of rights, or whether this is even desirable.

Posting via Kindle sounds hard. You seem to be accomplishing it, though, which says either something about your

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I think it would be perfectly fine at specific parties, and with people who have already negotiated the is-it-ok-to-ask.

It's mostly just that I don't see why I should have to 'learn to say no better' because someone else wants to streamline random strange men's access to my chest. Well, and also that there's no equivalent secondary sexual characteristic for men -- it can't go both ways. And because the environment isn't exactly lacking in peer pressure, and I think 'but you can just say no!' is disingenuous.

I just really don't want to have to wear a red button that says 'no' in order to not be treated as a potentially-available piece of meat. Ever. I'm very firm on this point, and very firm on the point that my breasts are private property, not 'open source.' And I don't want to have to preemptively hang a banner on myself to make that point. It makes me feel threatened.

(You can find out more about what the actual discussion entailed at the links I've added to the journal above.)

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

You shouldn't. And I didn't mean to imply that. What I meant to imply was that if there was an (among the button-handers-out) that "yes you may ask" implies "yes you may fondle," stick-hitting should ensue. It needs to be made very clear that prior consent IS NOT BEING GIVEN. Even at a specific party.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Also, this is a very... sensitive subject for me, for a lot of reasons. I may need to step away from the conversation because it's triggery or is making me rageful. Just wanted to say in advance that if I do, it's not your fault.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Understood. And this is why I add "I have my desires for how I want to be treated, you have yours, figuring out how to make a world where people with those distinct sets of desires can both be comfortable is difficult."

I have an interest in finding ways. I see it as a Hard Problem.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Let me see if I can clarify where I'm coming from here: I do not want to threaten your, or anyone's, comfort zone. I also understand that many people do want to threaten other people's comfort zones, and that those people need to be hit with sticks. I have my own comfort zone that I would like to be able to stay within, that is different from most women's, and I would like to learn how there can be a place in the world for a woman with my comfort zone without threatening anyone else's. I'm afraid there may be so many problems that are higher priority than that one that it's a question that may never be answered or even seriously approached in my lifetime, though.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Because I just noticed you're not on my sexfilter (would you like to me? Doesn't seem fair, I seem to be on yours) I should note that I'm dealing there with issues of being an extremely atypical, testosterone-laden women and whether or not it's valid for me to say "but I'm a woman, and I feel this other way!" ... I've lived most of my life trying to be an atypical example of what it can mean to be a woman - a far-end-of-the-spectrum case - and now I'm starting to wonder if I'm hurting other women by setting an example that requires a chemical imbalance to achieve and normal people shouldn't aim for or accept as part of normal. So I'm currently trying to decide whether my feelings "as a woman" are even valid.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Your feelings as a woman are always, always valid, of course. If you say, as a woman, "Well, I don't worry about X," that's an absolutely true observation.

What gets me is when the implication is 'and therefore you shouldn't worry about X either.' Which I don't think you'd do.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

I don't, it's never what I mean, and if I ever come across that way, please slap me. I never want to be that kind of person.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

(Also, yes, I'd love to be on the filter.)

[thegreatgonz.livejournal.com]

Good lord. Aside from everything else wrong with that, I am positive that the distinction between "yes, you can ask" and "yes, go ahead and grope" would be lost on (or misplaced by) a lot of people. A lot of men, to be blunt.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Yes.

And also, given that scifi cons are full of Geek Social Fallacy carriers, the pressure to not hurt someone's feelings by saying no (especially if you have ever said yes to anyone else) would be through the goddamn roof.

If it were in a room party, sure! No problem. It's the attempt to make it into a goddamn Open Source Boob Project social movement that gives me the screaming willies.

[donaithnen.livejournal.com]

When people make that argument about something i'm not actually jealous about it generally makes me seethe in anger and want to kill them them in especially painful ways.

Not that i'm exactly pleased with it when they're correct, but there's just this extra bit of "i want to rip your lungs out" when they continue to insist they know what you're feeling better than you do.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too. Being told what it is that I secretly do and don't want makes me want to remove peoples' lungs with a spoon.

[cwendy41.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of how somebody I know thinks that guys will buy fancy watches and other fancy things just so they can one-up each other. While that may be the case sometimes (overcompensating for something, perhaps?), buying fancy stuff can sometimes just make yourself feel better because you want it. Buying it to one-up somebody else is just, well, lame.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you buy things, do things, want things, have things because you want them and they're nice -- not to show someone up. And it's annoying to be treated as though you've only done something nice for yourself to make someone else feel bad.

Again, it's a 'yeah, well, consider that maybe my life doesn't revolve around you' moment. ;)

[neonelephant.livejournal.com]

People use the "just jealous" argument *without* having their tongue firmly planted in their cheek?

I guess I believe it, but I don't think it's the kind of thing I'd ever say seriously.

[coraa.livejournal.com]

You'd think!

That's why it always surprised me when it came up in the longhair community. I mean, it always seemed like the kind of thing your mom said to you when you were eleven and you didn't even believe then. And it was so prevalent, too. Baffling.

[mbrubeck.livejournal.com]

I think some people adopt an arguing strategy where they say not what they think is right or true, but anything and everything that comes to mind that could possibly support their argument.

[ceph.livejournal.com]

Did you see misia's marvelous response to the "Open Source" thing?

[coraa.livejournal.com]

I did! She's totally my hero.

[istgut.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that what they really are is envious. The sooner that people understand that distinction, the better a place the world will be :)