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coraaThis was one of the panels I was looking forward to the most, because I really think that non-Western European fantasy is a topic and inspiration that has not been much tapped (in the Western market, anyway). Also, I was curious how the panelists were going to define "faerie" in a non-Western context. I wasn't disappointed: the panel was fascinating.
Moderator: Shveta Thakrar (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
shvetufae)
Panelists: Cindy Pon (http://cindypon.com/blog/), Andrea Horbinski (ahorbinski), Valerie Frankel (http://frankelassociates.com/calithwain/author.htm)
For privacy reasons, I'm only including LJs/blogs of people on the panels if their LJs or blogs include their names in some kind of clear fashion, on the principle that the connection is therefore already public. That said, if I have miscalculated and you want me to remove either your real name or your blog link, or if you want me to use a different link, please let me know and I'll do so immediately.
Notes behind the cut. People are attributed by initials; Q/C indicates an audience comment or question. As always, transcribed fast and edited only glancingly, misattributions and errors are my own, assume everything outside of quote marks is a paraphrase. ??? indicates a name I missed; if someone else can fill that in, I would be forever obliged!
Note: As Shveta disclaimed at the beginning of the panel, the terms "mythology" and "folklore" are used in the technical sense of "sacred stories" and "knowledge of the people," and not in the colloquial sense of "untruths." Use of the terms is not intended to cast any aspersions on the credence or truth of the ideas and beliefs. Some of the things being discussed are still part of a living religious tradition, and are respected as such. That being the case, I've preserved the terminology used in the panel itself.
ST: Does the term "fae" apply to magical creatures from around the world, or is it a specific thing?
CP: It was hard to determine what to talk about as "faeries." Valerie came up with the idea of "above humans, below gods," but it was hard to determine what was close enough to faeries to count. The Chinese ideas aren’t much like the Western idea of the beautiful, ethereal fae. Finally decided to broaden the definition to challenge people to think about folklore/myth figures that fill the same role as Western faeries, including creatures that may not even be humanoid.
AH: Western European faerie lore is obsessed with the external humanoid form, usually beautiful. Asian traditions may not have a beautiful humanoid appearance. Can you call them faeries if they aren’t "fair folk"?
VF: The role of the helper spirit: little old man, bear spirit, ghost, faerie godmother. The antagonistic spirit. Emphasis on prohibitions, things that must or must not be done.
AH: Seen vs. unseen, determining what you’re dealing with. People argue within the cultures: in Japan, discussion of what is kami, what is a trickster having a joke at you, etc. These things aren't necessarily even fixed within the cultures that originated them.
ST: Grew up with stories of nagas and apsara, didn’t think of them in relationship to Celtic faeries.
ST: Talk about various cultures we’ve looked at.
CP: Research for Silver Phoenix etc. into Chinese folklore. Had never been to China, didn’t know much about Chinese myth/folklore to start with, immersed herself in the field to research. Researched the Chinese fox spirit. Stories in the oral tradition. Fantastic stories about ghosts, demons, deities, fox spirits. Stories stayed the same, but motifs changed with the times to comment on things: prostitution, feudal relationship, etc. Fox spirits would serve different purposes depending on the moral intended for the story. Fox spirits were shapeshifters with human forms, usually beautiful, often prostitutes or seductresses like succubi, or else would be very romantic in a Romeo and Juliet kind of way. Same creature serving different roles. Sometimes used with relationship to prostitutes to explain why your "girlfriend" has vanished: it was because she was a fox spirit (rather than because you ran out of money). "The Discourse on Foxes and Ghosts." Commentary on his culture in the form of fantastic stories. Used fantastic beings because you can sympathize with them: they’re not human, they’re otherworldly. Though modern YA tends to not encourage explicit morals, many of the older tales have very explicit morals.
VF: Most stories have some kind of moral. Incubi/succubi stories tend to have morals about having sex with strange men/women.
AH: Fox spirit stories in Japan as well (kitsune). Regional variations, local variations. In some parts of Japan, a fox’s wedding is the day when it’s sunny but it rains, but in other parts it’s the day when it’s sunny but it hails. Some of the kitsune stories come from Buddhism, from China, from India (adapted from dakini). Kitsune are the Japanese creature with the most uptake in Western fantasy, in which they are shapeshifting sexy ladies. There are plenty of stories about fox wives, but there are also many stories of foxes giving gifts, or sorcerers/superhuman people, benefactors to the community, who are children or grandchildren of kitsune. ??? wrote a lot of stories during and after the modernization of Japan in the 1860s, who was recording rural folktales before they were destroyed. But what actually happened was that a lot of folk belief has persisted and been taken up into modern media such as anime and manga. Yokai, the monsters. The phrase used when you pick up the phone (moshimoshi, check spelling) is folklorically explained as a phrase that foxes can’t say, so you can be sure you’re talking to another person, or at least not a fox. The idea that there’s more to the world than you can see remains.
VF: Mayan goddess rescued by dragonflies. Inanna’s clay figures that rescue her from the underworld. Many cultures with the helper spirit, often small, that the hero/heroine encounters on his/her journey. California Native American story about sea people, seaweedy and shell-covered, and one of the young sea people lures a girl out and convinces her to marry him, and then there are all these rules and restrictions. She gradually becomes more and more sea-like and eventually enters the magic world fully.
ST: Across cultures there do seem to be ideas of "bad" and "good" that may not match with Western ideas. For instance, demons may not be evil.
VF: Aumakua, a "good" succubus in the form of a spirit wife, whereas succubi-like creatures are usually bad in Western stories. Tricksters may be good or bad or both. Vampires are usually bad.
ST: Hindu spirit vampire that sucks energy from people, with backwards hands and feet.
CP: Is there something more benign in Indian folklore?
ST: Many things. In the West, snakes tend to be feared. In Indian myth, nagas/nagini are not evil. One interesting bit of folklore: if you want to charm a naga/nagini, you can build a house of precious metals and jewels on water and she will come. They’re often/usually benign spirits. In one image, nagas/nagini are seen worshipping Lord Krishna. Often faerie beings are seen as a step between us and the divine. Does that hold true in East Asian?
AH: There is a division between the creatures that are more powerful and those that humans can trap or trick.
CP: Hierarchy: divine beings were propitiated, demons/monsters could be exorcised or tricked. Beings are otherworldly, but if they’re like demons you should be wary of them, or if they’re good you can entreat them for aid.
VF: Even when the faeries are evil or cruel, there is often a way to bribe them.
AH: Fox spirits: are they spirits or are they physical beings? They’re both, that division is not relevant to them. Same with tanuki.
Question and Answer
Q: When dealing with urban fantasy/modern fantasy: how do you deal with mythologies and beliefs that are still active religious beliefs, especially if you’re outside that tradition?
ST: Do your research, talk to people who do practice, try to be as respectful as you can. They are part of the folklore that informs the culture and the faith, so it makes sense for them to be present, but you should do the research and be respectful. She is offended by things that use stereotypes, especially offensive ones, like in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
CP: Dearth of fantasy inspired by non-Western cultures. Would love to see white people who are interested in the culture and want to write about it, but you need to understand that someone WILL be offended. (Even if you are from the culture in question.) That isn’t a bad thing and people respond differently to different things.
AH: You must do research, but eventually you’ll get to a point where you make stuff up. Keep in mind the idea that these things are still valid lifeways. Looking at stuff written by non-Japanese people from the 20s, 30s, which was very condescending; it’s better to consider that the people who you’re writing about are not worse than you, or participating in a dead culture, is better. Remember that it’s still current.
Q: Prejudice in the publishing industry against things that are non-Western. Is there anything you did to interest them, or was it just the hard slog?
CP: "Let’s just say I’m stubborn." Wrote it while at home with kids, had just started Chinese brush-painting lessons. Started to look more into her culture, has always loved fantasy, so she combined the two. Wrote "Silver Phoenix," loved it enough to try and get it published. Queried 121 agents, originally sent it to adult-fantasy agents, one of whom suggested querying YA agents. First editor said, "This is like Joy Luck Club, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, why is this fantasy? Asian fantasy doesn’t sell." Didn’t listen and eventually did get it published. Editors are trying to find new and different things, agents were interested too. Write what you’re passionate about and be persistent.
ST: If you want to see more diversity on the bookshelves, write to the buyers of the big chain bookstores and tell them you’re interested.
Q: If you wanted to write more than one mythology at once, how would you do it?
ST: Neil Gaiman has done it, Delia Sherman has done it. Look at the different folklores and see how they would intersect and what that would mean for the different cultures involved.
AH: Lots of scope for situational humor in that sort of thing. Things you can play for comedy. "When Fox Is A Thousand," Larissa Lai, about fox spirits emigrating to Vancouver.
Malinda Lo (audience): Cultures are hybrid. People often thing of non-American cultures as "pure," but combining cultural elements happens all the time all around the world. It’s very normal, and it’s not necessary to divide them into boxes.
EDIT: A link to the presentation handout.
Moderator: Shveta Thakrar (
shvetufae)Panelists: Cindy Pon (http://cindypon.com/blog/), Andrea Horbinski (
ahorbinski), Valerie Frankel (http://frankelassociates.com/calithwain/author.htm)For privacy reasons, I'm only including LJs/blogs of people on the panels if their LJs or blogs include their names in some kind of clear fashion, on the principle that the connection is therefore already public. That said, if I have miscalculated and you want me to remove either your real name or your blog link, or if you want me to use a different link, please let me know and I'll do so immediately.
Notes behind the cut. People are attributed by initials; Q/C indicates an audience comment or question. As always, transcribed fast and edited only glancingly, misattributions and errors are my own, assume everything outside of quote marks is a paraphrase. ??? indicates a name I missed; if someone else can fill that in, I would be forever obliged!
Note: As Shveta disclaimed at the beginning of the panel, the terms "mythology" and "folklore" are used in the technical sense of "sacred stories" and "knowledge of the people," and not in the colloquial sense of "untruths." Use of the terms is not intended to cast any aspersions on the credence or truth of the ideas and beliefs. Some of the things being discussed are still part of a living religious tradition, and are respected as such. That being the case, I've preserved the terminology used in the panel itself.
ST: Does the term "fae" apply to magical creatures from around the world, or is it a specific thing?
CP: It was hard to determine what to talk about as "faeries." Valerie came up with the idea of "above humans, below gods," but it was hard to determine what was close enough to faeries to count. The Chinese ideas aren’t much like the Western idea of the beautiful, ethereal fae. Finally decided to broaden the definition to challenge people to think about folklore/myth figures that fill the same role as Western faeries, including creatures that may not even be humanoid.
AH: Western European faerie lore is obsessed with the external humanoid form, usually beautiful. Asian traditions may not have a beautiful humanoid appearance. Can you call them faeries if they aren’t "fair folk"?
VF: The role of the helper spirit: little old man, bear spirit, ghost, faerie godmother. The antagonistic spirit. Emphasis on prohibitions, things that must or must not be done.
AH: Seen vs. unseen, determining what you’re dealing with. People argue within the cultures: in Japan, discussion of what is kami, what is a trickster having a joke at you, etc. These things aren't necessarily even fixed within the cultures that originated them.
ST: Grew up with stories of nagas and apsara, didn’t think of them in relationship to Celtic faeries.
ST: Talk about various cultures we’ve looked at.
CP: Research for Silver Phoenix etc. into Chinese folklore. Had never been to China, didn’t know much about Chinese myth/folklore to start with, immersed herself in the field to research. Researched the Chinese fox spirit. Stories in the oral tradition. Fantastic stories about ghosts, demons, deities, fox spirits. Stories stayed the same, but motifs changed with the times to comment on things: prostitution, feudal relationship, etc. Fox spirits would serve different purposes depending on the moral intended for the story. Fox spirits were shapeshifters with human forms, usually beautiful, often prostitutes or seductresses like succubi, or else would be very romantic in a Romeo and Juliet kind of way. Same creature serving different roles. Sometimes used with relationship to prostitutes to explain why your "girlfriend" has vanished: it was because she was a fox spirit (rather than because you ran out of money). "The Discourse on Foxes and Ghosts." Commentary on his culture in the form of fantastic stories. Used fantastic beings because you can sympathize with them: they’re not human, they’re otherworldly. Though modern YA tends to not encourage explicit morals, many of the older tales have very explicit morals.
VF: Most stories have some kind of moral. Incubi/succubi stories tend to have morals about having sex with strange men/women.
AH: Fox spirit stories in Japan as well (kitsune). Regional variations, local variations. In some parts of Japan, a fox’s wedding is the day when it’s sunny but it rains, but in other parts it’s the day when it’s sunny but it hails. Some of the kitsune stories come from Buddhism, from China, from India (adapted from dakini). Kitsune are the Japanese creature with the most uptake in Western fantasy, in which they are shapeshifting sexy ladies. There are plenty of stories about fox wives, but there are also many stories of foxes giving gifts, or sorcerers/superhuman people, benefactors to the community, who are children or grandchildren of kitsune. ??? wrote a lot of stories during and after the modernization of Japan in the 1860s, who was recording rural folktales before they were destroyed. But what actually happened was that a lot of folk belief has persisted and been taken up into modern media such as anime and manga. Yokai, the monsters. The phrase used when you pick up the phone (moshimoshi, check spelling) is folklorically explained as a phrase that foxes can’t say, so you can be sure you’re talking to another person, or at least not a fox. The idea that there’s more to the world than you can see remains.
VF: Mayan goddess rescued by dragonflies. Inanna’s clay figures that rescue her from the underworld. Many cultures with the helper spirit, often small, that the hero/heroine encounters on his/her journey. California Native American story about sea people, seaweedy and shell-covered, and one of the young sea people lures a girl out and convinces her to marry him, and then there are all these rules and restrictions. She gradually becomes more and more sea-like and eventually enters the magic world fully.
ST: Across cultures there do seem to be ideas of "bad" and "good" that may not match with Western ideas. For instance, demons may not be evil.
VF: Aumakua, a "good" succubus in the form of a spirit wife, whereas succubi-like creatures are usually bad in Western stories. Tricksters may be good or bad or both. Vampires are usually bad.
ST: Hindu spirit vampire that sucks energy from people, with backwards hands and feet.
CP: Is there something more benign in Indian folklore?
ST: Many things. In the West, snakes tend to be feared. In Indian myth, nagas/nagini are not evil. One interesting bit of folklore: if you want to charm a naga/nagini, you can build a house of precious metals and jewels on water and she will come. They’re often/usually benign spirits. In one image, nagas/nagini are seen worshipping Lord Krishna. Often faerie beings are seen as a step between us and the divine. Does that hold true in East Asian?
AH: There is a division between the creatures that are more powerful and those that humans can trap or trick.
CP: Hierarchy: divine beings were propitiated, demons/monsters could be exorcised or tricked. Beings are otherworldly, but if they’re like demons you should be wary of them, or if they’re good you can entreat them for aid.
VF: Even when the faeries are evil or cruel, there is often a way to bribe them.
AH: Fox spirits: are they spirits or are they physical beings? They’re both, that division is not relevant to them. Same with tanuki.
Question and Answer
Q: When dealing with urban fantasy/modern fantasy: how do you deal with mythologies and beliefs that are still active religious beliefs, especially if you’re outside that tradition?
ST: Do your research, talk to people who do practice, try to be as respectful as you can. They are part of the folklore that informs the culture and the faith, so it makes sense for them to be present, but you should do the research and be respectful. She is offended by things that use stereotypes, especially offensive ones, like in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
CP: Dearth of fantasy inspired by non-Western cultures. Would love to see white people who are interested in the culture and want to write about it, but you need to understand that someone WILL be offended. (Even if you are from the culture in question.) That isn’t a bad thing and people respond differently to different things.
AH: You must do research, but eventually you’ll get to a point where you make stuff up. Keep in mind the idea that these things are still valid lifeways. Looking at stuff written by non-Japanese people from the 20s, 30s, which was very condescending; it’s better to consider that the people who you’re writing about are not worse than you, or participating in a dead culture, is better. Remember that it’s still current.
Q: Prejudice in the publishing industry against things that are non-Western. Is there anything you did to interest them, or was it just the hard slog?
CP: "Let’s just say I’m stubborn." Wrote it while at home with kids, had just started Chinese brush-painting lessons. Started to look more into her culture, has always loved fantasy, so she combined the two. Wrote "Silver Phoenix," loved it enough to try and get it published. Queried 121 agents, originally sent it to adult-fantasy agents, one of whom suggested querying YA agents. First editor said, "This is like Joy Luck Club, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, why is this fantasy? Asian fantasy doesn’t sell." Didn’t listen and eventually did get it published. Editors are trying to find new and different things, agents were interested too. Write what you’re passionate about and be persistent.
ST: If you want to see more diversity on the bookshelves, write to the buyers of the big chain bookstores and tell them you’re interested.
Q: If you wanted to write more than one mythology at once, how would you do it?
ST: Neil Gaiman has done it, Delia Sherman has done it. Look at the different folklores and see how they would intersect and what that would mean for the different cultures involved.
AH: Lots of scope for situational humor in that sort of thing. Things you can play for comedy. "When Fox Is A Thousand," Larissa Lai, about fox spirits emigrating to Vancouver.
Malinda Lo (audience): Cultures are hybrid. People often thing of non-American cultures as "pure," but combining cultural elements happens all the time all around the world. It’s very normal, and it’s not necessary to divide them into boxes.
EDIT: A link to the presentation handout.
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no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 02:37 am (UTC)I found the comment about Fair Folk odd, because even though they are called that, not all the western fairies are particularly beautiful, and even those that are might be casting a glamour.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 03:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 09:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 09:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 10:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 04:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 08:44 pm (UTC)Thanks for the clarification.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 10:28 am (UTC)And as for living traditions, in my part of England "the Old Lad" is classed as being on the borderland between folklore and myth, but I have read an account collected in the 1960s of a boy who was quite clear that the Old Lad existed: he had experienced him, and so had all the animals on the moor, and he had been so terrified that he ran at once, leaving his lunch box behind.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 04:35 pm (UTC)Any idea what caused this and how widespread it was? That's a pretty drastic difference.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 05:00 pm (UTC)I recall it mostly as being post Norman Conquest and going on until about the late 18th century. There were differences in adults, too. Our tutor had been working on a Saxon population, moved on to a Medieval one, then had to go back and check something with one of the Saxons. She glanced at the bones and thought, "definitely male", checked her notes and saw "definitely female". She went back for a look at the pelvis, and yes, female, but more robust than many Medieval men.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 06:50 pm (UTC)mortality was so high that people didn't want to invest good food in children who probably wouldn't live long enough for it to be worthwhile
Thus making it a self-fulfilling prophecy, and widening the social gap - because people who *did* get adequate nutrition would have had a marked advantage over malnourished ones.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 07:38 pm (UTC)Ah, thanks. Seems I *really* must hie me to a library. (Working on an alt hist novel that not only has archaeology but diplomatic relations with Faerie; this sounds like a relevant fact as the Fey would not have been subject to this trend.)
If you could reccommend a starting point, I'd be most grateful.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 07:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 08:17 pm (UTC)That part is sorted; I have access to the Bod. <hugs library card and just about refrains from calling it George> I have at least a fighting chance to get my hands on any given book.
And a lot of what we learned was "personal communication" from our tutor's own research.
Yeah, that's a part I *really miss,* but this is the best I can do. (When I started my degree, archaeology wasn't on my radar, that's only been a recent interest since all the landscape historians now seem to be working in archaeology.)
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 08:32 pm (UTC)OK to friend?
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 04:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 12:18 pm (UTC)I've seen 'fairy' used in translation of the Chinese Bridge of Birds story.
What's the difference between a fairy, Greek nymph or satyr, or household god/spirit? Lares/penates, domovoi, Chinese kitchen god who'd spy on you for Heaven?
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 04:39 pm (UTC)I would say there are enormous differences, but I've never heard of lares/penates or domovoi. Could you expand?
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 04:48 pm (UTC)Almost anything I could usefully say would require me going to Wikipedia or something. But lares and penates were something like household gods for the Romans -- actually, I think one were clan ancestral spirits, and the other household gods -- and domovoi were some sort of Russian household spirit. Cherryh had one in the Rusalka books, I think she had it looking like an aggressive dust bunny, though I might be confusing it with another household thingy -- I think her wizard had three living with him.
Sort of like brownies, maybe? I don't know. Certainly a lot of difference between these things and Sidhe, in appearance, location, and personality -- basically, no relation whatsoever!
Hmm, if the question is whether there are things like Sidhe outside Western Europe... it's worth remembering that they started out as the local gods, and then Christianity happened to them. Arguably the equivalent of the Sidhe for the ancient Greeks was not nymphs but the Olympians themselves.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 10:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 07:03 pm (UTC)right now are written with the western folklore
or ideal of fairy versus the equivalents
from non-western cultures.
our intent was to broaden the audience's
perspective, what they know and find more
familiar. which IS usually
the "ethereal and beautiful" image given to us
by tolkien.
from the positive response we received after,
and the excitement about the topic,
i think we achieved it. =)
no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 02:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 05:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 07:04 pm (UTC)post on our panel! it was lovely to meet you!
no subject
Date: 2010-10-12 08:17 pm (UTC)